The diagram is GONE...

All i can say is ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Resource 1 Resource 2 [urldescription="Resource 3"] http://sqljunkies.com/WebLog/euang/archive/2004/07/26/3635.aspx?Pending=true[/url]

I really loved using the diagram. It made setting up relationships so much easier. Without it creating a new database is going to be a mission!!

Another BIG Bummer is that you can no longer alter the contents of a table by opening it up in the manager!

Who makes the stupid discisions? Why are they employed

I suspect it will reappear as an extra expense add-on / upgrade just to suck out the last few remaining sheckles of your budget.

You used the diagramming ? I almost never did .

I also update table contents in QA or directly in a query. The diagramming is not that useful, as with bigger databases (think 100+ tables) you can't do a top down journey into your system, or you have to make a lot of diagrams. It also is particular awkward to see what the FK's really are.

Therefore I prefer the ORM/NIAM tool in Visio. (ok, my hero Halpin supervises it, which is also a plus ) You can create true abstract datamodels with NIAM/ORM and generate proper E/R models from them. What's more appropriate, the diagramming alows you to properly organize the sentences per group. Not ideal though. In 1992 I did an internship at Ericsson where I used a Case tool on Ingres (and sun boxes). You could first design DFD's, DSD's, and from a top/down perspective, so first a very simple model of the system and when you selected parts of it, you opened detailed versions of these, so it was all part of eachother.

Something like rational offers now. I'm not sure where Whitehorse ends up though. It wouldn't surprise me if VS.NET 2005 would sport a full top/down diagramming tool for relational models. If not, they've missed the boat COMPLETELY.

The diagramming is not that useful, as with bigger databases

Yes it is very usefull with Big Datbases, We define our diagrams into smaller "Modules" so that the developer doing a job on a certain section of an application can see how his section of the DB Works.

Like for example the Product, Employee or Transaction sections. I also think it is the only way that you can see how a database is really structure and suppose to work.

I don't like Visio (Pice of @#%&) it is awkward to use. maybe Whitehorse will do DB Integration.

If i remember correctly "Erwin" is / was also a nice tool to use. But at that time of my life i prefered to work with IB Admin...But that was the days when i still had the principle of not supporting M$ dev tools. ....funny what a person will do for money.

It also is particular awkward to see what the FK's really are

??? Why

wayne wrote:

The diagramming is not that useful, as with bigger databases

Yes it is very usefull with Big Datbases, We define our diagrams into smaller "Modules" so that the developer doing a job on a certain section of an application can see how his section of the DB Works.

Ok, but it requires this dicipline to chop it up in chunks right at the beginning.

Like for example the Product, Employee or Transaction sections. I also think it is the only way that you can see how a database is really structure and suppose to work.

Naah. Any E/R modeling app can do that, Visio's E/R modelling (the vs.net enterprise edition version that is) with reverse engineering for example works very well with this.

It also is particular awkward to see what the FK's really are

??? Why

Because you can't see which field is related to which field

Because you can't see which field is related to which field

Fair answer.

netclectic wrote:

I suspect it will reappear as an extra expense add-on / upgrade just to suck out the last few remaining sheckles of your budget.

And that will be called Access 2005...

I noticed you can still create an Access XP project for SQL Server 2005 databases. Don't try and open a table containing the new XML data type or it will bomb out...

Whitehorse has got to come to the rescue...

By far my favorite (and I feel indespensible tool) for managing relations in my db is Visio Enterprise - I forked out for it, but it has proved almost as invaluable as LLBLGEN - almost... :-)

You can reverse engineer db's or create them from scratch... It will find existing relations and then you can also create new ones. Click update db and viola (sp?)...

Just my 2 cents on the whole ERD thing.

Otis wrote:

wayne wrote:

The diagramming is not that useful, as with bigger databases

Yes it is very usefull with Big Datbases, We define our diagrams into smaller "Modules" so that the developer doing a job on a certain section of an application can see how his section of the DB Works.

Ok, but it requires this dicipline to chop it up in chunks right at the beginning.

Like for example the Product, Employee or Transaction sections. I also think it is the only way that you can see how a database is really structure and suppose to work.

Naah. Any E/R modeling app can do that, Visio's E/R modelling (the vs.net enterprise edition version that is) with reverse engineering for example works very well with this.

It also is particular awkward to see what the FK's really are

??? Why

Because you can't see which field is related to which field